Path: visi.com!news4.mr.net!mr.net!winternet.com!mac.radparker.com!user
From: al@radparker.com (Al Iverson)
Newsgroups: mn.general,winternet.general
Subject: Winternet Business Savvy (ha ha)
Followup-To: mn.general
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 02:17:07 +0100
Organization: NOT happy with Winternet Corp.
Lines: 21
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <al-1007960217070001@mac.radparker.com>
Reply-To: al@radparker.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: mac.radparker.com
X-Newsreader: Value-Added NewsWatcher 2.0b24.0+
Xref: visi.com mn.general:27820 winternet.general:450

It has been put forth by various statements from Carl Mathison, Kevin
Mathison, Irene Frankowski , and Michael Frankowski that a lack of a good
business sense was a major contributing factor to the ousting of Mike
Horwath at Winternet.

I feel it necessary to question their own judgement and business sense.
How does degrading service reliability and creating a public relations
nightmare show a great business sense?

Great going guys. Knock Winternet off the net for the weekend, and piss
off a large amount of the clientele. Obviously, this is what they taught
you in business school.

Winternet customers, please call the Winternet office at (612) 333-1505
and tell them you're unhappy with the changes.  If you get the voice mail,
try entering extension 37, last time I used it, someone answered it.

Al Iverson

-- 
Al Iverson -- al@radparker.com -- http://radparker.com/

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Path: visi.com!news4.mr.net!mr.net!winternet.com!ppp-67-14.dialup.winternet.com!user
From: guy@winternet.com (Guy T. Rice)
Newsgroups: mn.general,winternet.general
Subject: Re: Winternet Business Savvy (ha ha)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 05:01:57 -0500
Organization: House Flambeau, Order of Hermes
Lines: 55
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <guy-1007960501570001@ppp-67-14.dialup.winternet.com>
References: <al-1007960217070001@mac.radparker.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-67-14.dialup.winternet.com
Xref: visi.com mn.general:27826 winternet.general:452

In article <al-1007960217070001@mac.radparker.com>, al@radparker.com wrote:

|It has been put forth by various statements from Carl Mathison, Kevin
|Mathison, Irene Frankowski , and Michael Frankowski that a lack of a good
|business sense was a major contributing factor to the ousting of Mike
|Horwath at Winternet.
|
|I feel it necessary to question their own judgement and business sense.
|How does degrading service reliability and creating a public relations
|nightmare show a great business sense?
|
|Great going guys. Knock Winternet off the net for the weekend, and piss
|off a large amount of the clientele. Obviously, this is what they taught
|you in business school.

Heh heh.  Too true.  These people obviously have no clue when it comes to
good business sense.  They've alienated many customers simply by refusing
the communicate fully with us.  This from a company whose business is
communications!

Not to mention the fact that they've fired Mike Horwath and the staff he
assembled -- the most important reason why many of us choose this ISP over
any other.  I'm certainly not sending any money to this place until Mike
is back in charge, and if that means never, fine, it's not like we can't
find another ISP.  Without Mike and the excellent staff he assembled, this
provider has nothing to offer we can't get elsewhere.

What the new managers fail to grasp is that Winternet isn't just a name,
nor is it a series of computers connected to a network.  What made
Winternet what it was was the people.  It was the people who worked there
that made it the best ISP in the Twin Cities.  And now they don't work
there.  Where does that leave Winternet?

They think because they've locked out the old staff they now control
Winternet.  All they control is an office full of equipment.  It wasn't an
office full of equipment that made Winternet unique.  They got rid of the
_only_ thing that made Winternet better than any other ISP, the people,
and replaced them with staff that doesn't communicate with the customers
nor apparently are they as capable of handling the technical aspects of
the job.

It's unfortunate that so many people in the world don't realize that
employees are the only assets corporations have that really mean
anything.  It's the people that truly define a company, especially a small
company.  Not a piece of paper giving you the right to use a name, or a
bunch of Sun computers sitting in an office.  For all practical purposes,
Winternet no longer exists.

These people apparently think that stripping the company of the only
unique and worthwhile assets it had makes good business sense.  With
business acumen of this caliber, I expect StarNet Communications to be
filing for bankruptcy fairly soon.  Not that this will matter to anyone. 
Most of Winternet's customers are already exploring alternate ISPs.  None
of us will still be onboard when this ship finally sinks beneath the waves
of cyberspace...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Path: visi.com!winternet.com!news
From: al@winternet.com (Al Coholic)
Newsgroups: mn.general,winternet.general
Subject: Re: Winternet Business Savvy (ha ha)
Date: 10 Jul 1996 10:33:47 GMT
Organization: Winternet Corporation, Mpls, MN
Lines: 48
Distribution: local
Message-ID: <4s00ub$6k0@blackice.winternet.com>
References: <al-1007960217070001@mac.radparker.com> <guy-1007960501570001@ppp-67-14.dialup.winternet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tundra.winternet.com
Xref: visi.com mn.general:28043 winternet.general:803

guy@winternet.com (Guy T. Rice) wrote:

[other irrelevant stuffs snipped]
>
>What the new managers fail to grasp is that Winternet isn't just a name,
>nor is it a series of computers connected to a network.  What made
>Winternet what it was was the people.  It was the people who worked there
>that made it the best ISP in the Twin Cities.  And now they don't work
>there.  Where does that leave Winternet?
>
>They think because they've locked out the old staff they now control
>Winternet.  All they control is an office full of equipment.  It wasn't an
>office full of equipment that made Winternet unique.  They got rid of the
>_only_ thing that made Winternet better than any other ISP, the people,
>and replaced them with staff that doesn't communicate with the customers
>nor apparently are they as capable of handling the technical aspects of
>the job.
>
>It's unfortunate that so many people in the world don't realize that
>employees are the only assets corporations have that really mean
>anything.  It's the people that truly define a company, especially a small
>company.  Not a piece of paper giving you the right to use a name, or a
>bunch of Sun computers sitting in an office.  For all practical purposes,
>Winternet no longer exists.
>
>These people apparently think that stripping the company of the only
>unique and worthwhile assets it had makes good business sense.  With
>business acumen of this caliber, I expect StarNet Communications to be
>filing for bankruptcy fairly soon.  Not that this will matter to anyone. 
>Most of Winternet's customers are already exploring alternate ISPs.  None
>of us will still be onboard when this ship finally sinks beneath the waves
>of cyberspace...

Too true! And they actually expect to return things back to normal and
eventually recover the loss when the dissatisfied customers have left.
Seems to me that a large potion of the userbase on Winternet is a result
of happy AND _LOYAL_ customers recommending the service to their friends,
relatives and colleagues. HELLO WAKE UP FOOLIOS! Mike Horwath and his crew
gave Winternet the good name. They helped build this ISP into what it is
today. If the new management thinks they could bring just anybody in here
and expect to continue with what Mike and posse have accomplished, then
think about this--how the heck did Winternet get to be such a big name in
MN in the first place? As Guy T, Rice here puts it, it's not the name, it's
the employees! (and you guys ain't no Nike(tm))

--
Al (al@winternet.com)
--

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Path: visi.com!winternet.com!daremo.com!user
From: Mogilner@daremo.com (Todd Mogilner)
Newsgroups: mn.general,winternet.general
Subject: Re: Winternet Business Savvy (ha ha)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:19:58 -0500
Organization: Daremo Communications
Lines: 21
Distribution: local
Message-ID: <Mogilner-1007960919580001@daremo.com>
References: <al-1007960217070001@mac.radparker.com> <guy-1007960501570001@ppp-67-14.dialup.winternet.com> <4s00ub$6k0@blackice.winternet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: daremo.com
Xref: visi.com mn.general:28045 winternet.general:808

My favorite two statements that shows Frankowski's and Mathison's business
Savy: 

Kevin Mathison coming on to IRC to (imo) harass and aggrevate the
situation: (paraphrasing)
"I don't have to explain anything to you guys aren't you all ex-winternet
customers?."

And of course Michael Frankowski's statement on channel 9 stating all of
Mike Horwath's followers should leave and follow Mike if he starts another
ISP.


Is this good business savy? Is this the way to calm the masses and show
that they know how to run a business? Do you think customers are going to
want to get involved with a company who won't face the problems head on? 

I would say in the last several days the new management has done more to
damage Winternet's business reputation than anything Mike has ever done...
They are doing a real piss poor job showing that they care about the
company or the customers.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Path: visi.com!winternet.com!news
From: Les Pratt <lpratt@winternet.com>
Newsgroups: winternet.general
Subject: Re: Winternet Business Savvy (ha ha)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 22:43:28 -0700
Organization: StarNet Communications, Inc
Lines: 62
Distribution: local
Message-ID: <31E5E600.36F4@winternet.com>
References: <al-1007960217070001@mac.radparker.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-67-74.dialup.winternet.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; I)

Al Iverson wrote:
> 
> It has been put forth by various statements from Carl Mathison, Kevin
> Mathison, Irene Frankowski , and Michael Frankowski that a lack of a good
> business sense was a major contributing factor to the ousting of Mike
> Horwath at Winternet.
> 
> I feel it necessary to question their own judgement and business sense.
> How does degrading service reliability and creating a public relations
> nightmare show a great business sense?
> 

I noticed that the statements put forth "that a lack of good business sense was a major 
contributing factor to the ousting of Mike Horwath" are not being questioned; just an attack on 
the business sense of the current management.  But missed billings, duplicate billings, etc. is 
a matter of concern to a business; or, they won't be in business for very long.  This happened 
with Mike in charge.  Will the newbies be any better?  We'll see.

Much of what has happened and is happening has been played out over and over again in the 
business world.  This isn't anything new.  Many people that have the ability to "start" a 
company lack the ability to maintain growth beyond a certain point.  It's very rare when the 
start-up skills are joined with the "maintenance business" skills needed for a maturing 
business.

While I was very satisfied, overall, with the service received from the "classic" Winternet, I'm 
holding off in judgement of the current administration.  Will it be the same?  It can't be.  Even if 
Mike & Co. were to return, it still wouldn't be the same.  Ya can't turn back the clock.

> Great going guys. Knock Winternet off the net for the weekend, and piss
> off a large amount of the clientele. Obviously, this is what they taught
> you in business school.

It doesn't seem that long ago that Winternet had some of the same type of problems.  Again, 
this isn't new.  Mike & Co. didn't always have everything running perfectly.  There were 
postings about problems that couldn't and weren't corrected within a day or two before.  

> 
> Winternet customers, please call the Winternet office at (612) 333-1505
> and tell them you're unhappy with the changes.  If you get the voice mail,
> try entering extension 37, last time I used it, someone answered it.
> 
> Al Iverson
> 
> --
> Al Iverson -- al@radparker.com -- http://radparker.com/

I don't particularly care about the changes recently made at Winternet; but, I know that I don't 
(and probably never will) know the whole story.  My criteria for staying with Winternet now is 
the same as it was before; is the service that I want and require there at the best value 
available?  

Things haven't been working well since "Black Friday"; what has been happening is 
unacceptable if it continues for very long; but, this is no different than the problems that have 
occurred before at Winternet.

I do find it somewhat amusing though, that all of a sudden, all of the past bitching and 
complaining seems to have been forgotton.  But the current administration hasn't been given a 
chance.  At least many people are saying that they'll wait for a period of time (depending on the 
user) and give the new kids on the block a chance to prove themselves.

As for me, all of this is nothing new; been through it a few times before.  It will pass; if it doesn't 
I will pass onto another ISP.  For now, I'll wait and see.   :)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Path: visi.com!winternet.com!news
From: miked@winternet.com (Mike DeZelar)
Newsgroups: winternet.general
Subject: Re: Winternet Business Savvy (ha ha)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 12:36:20 GMT
Organization: StarNet Communications, Inc
Lines: 82
Distribution: local
Message-ID: <31e642da.1803105@news.winternet.com>
References: <al-1007960217070001@mac.radparker.com> <31E5E600.36F4@winternet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-66-87.dialup.winternet.com
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99e/32.227

Les Pratt <lpratt@winternet.com> wrote:
>Al Iverson wrote:
>> It has been put forth by various statements from Carl Mathison, Kevin
>> Mathison, Irene Frankowski , and Michael Frankowski that a lack of a good
>> business sense was a major contributing factor to the ousting of Mike
>> Horwath at Winternet.
>> 
>> I feel it necessary to question their own judgement and business sense.
>> How does degrading service reliability and creating a public relations
>> nightmare show a great business sense?
>
>I noticed that the statements put forth "that a lack of good business sense was a major 
>contributing factor to the ousting of Mike Horwath" are not being questioned; just an attack on 
>the business sense of the current management.  But missed billings, duplicate billings, etc. is 
>a matter of concern to a business; or, they won't be in business for very long.  This happened 
>with Mike in charge.  Will the newbies be any better?  We'll see.

Which is worse, trouble with the books and billing or technical
troubles?  I would argue that while administrative problems can cause
a slow death for a business, these technical problems (in a *very*
technical business) will cause a very rapid death to WinterNyet.

>Much of what has happened and is happening has been played out over and over again in the 
>business world.  This isn't anything new.  Many people that have the ability to "start" a 
>company lack the ability to maintain growth beyond a certain point.  It's very rare when the 
>start-up skills are joined with the "maintenance business" skills needed for a maturing 
>business.

Wouldn't it have made the best sense to not fire the entire staff, but
instead hire a business manager or office administrator.  This would
relieve Mike of those duties (that he was allegedly not the best at)
and allow more of his time to be spent on the technical side.

Now, it is possible that Mike was resisting such a change, and maybe
that was one of the problems.  Who knows.

>While I was very satisfied, overall, with the service received from the "classic" Winternet, I'm 
>holding off in judgement of the current administration.  Will it be the same?  It can't be.  Even if 
>Mike & Co. were to return, it still wouldn't be the same.  Ya can't turn back the clock.

Why do you say that?  Yes, there may be a few customers permanently
lost regardless, but "Mike & Co." could quite surely get Winternet
back to the level of performance that they were maintaining before the
sixth.

>> Great going guys. Knock Winternet off the net for the weekend, and piss
>> off a large amount of the clientele. Obviously, this is what they taught
>> you in business school.
>
>It doesn't seem that long ago that Winternet had some of the same type of problems.  Again, 
>this isn't new.  Mike & Co. didn't always have everything running perfectly.  There were 
>postings about problems that couldn't and weren't corrected within a day or two before.  

I've *never* been forcibly unsubscribed from half of the e-mail lists
I subscribe to until now.  This never happend with any of the problems
that have occurred in the past.

[snip]

>Things haven't been working well since "Black Friday"; what has been happening is 
>unacceptable if it continues for very long; but, this is no different than the problems that have 
>occurred before at Winternet.

Yes, it is.  See above.  

>I do find it somewhat amusing though, that all of a sudden, all of the past bitching and 
>complaining seems to have been forgotton.  But the current administration hasn't been given a 
>chance.  At least many people are saying that they'll wait for a period of time (depending on the 
>user) and give the new kids on the block a chance to prove themselves.

Have they shown that they are worthy of a chance?

>As for me, all of this is nothing new; been through it a few times before.  It will pass; if it doesn't 
>I will pass onto another ISP.  For now, I'll wait and see.   :)

Unfortunately, it seems to be passing like a kidney stone.

---

Michael DeZelar                        E-Mail: miked@winternet.com
Elk River, Minnesota, USA
O-