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From: schne042@gold.tc.umn.edu (Mike Schneider)
Newsgroups: mn.general,winternet.fan.mike-horwath,winternet.general
Subject: Inconsistent Winternet stories
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 08:54:11 -0600
Organization: U of MN, Biosystems & Agricultural Engineering
Lines: 31
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I saw the channel 9 news story about Winternet last night. Michael
Frankowski made some comments that were inconsistent with earlier reports.
He said some systems went down when the new staff came in and started
moving equipment around. I don't know much about computers, but this does
not sound like it has anything to do with the earlier reports of root
passwords and power cylcling unix systems.
Also, what kind of people just start moving equipment around. When I'm
faced with a new piece of equipment I make sure I know how it works before
I move it and start making changes.
Even if he was telling the truth, and they did start moving equipment
around 1) why were they moving it around, 2) why were they not more
careful when moving expensive equipment, and 3) most manuals clearly state
to unplug equipment before attempting to move.
He also stated that they were completely back online and back to normal.
I saw a statement today that said that there were still parts of the
system that were down. Which is correct?
Another thing is that the first reports said the entire staff quit when
Mike was fired. Later reports stated most of the staff quit and the
remainder was fired. So which is it? How many people (or percentage of
people) does the remainder make up?
I would like to hear more people's observations of inconsistancies about
this whole situation. Thank you.
Keep your stick on the ice,
Mike Schneider http://www.bae.umn.edu/Staff/schneider.html
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From: jlogajan@skypoint.com (John Logajan)
Newsgroups: mn.general,winternet.fan.mike-horwath,winternet.general
Subject: Re: Inconsistent Winternet stories
Followup-To: mn.general,winternet.fan.mike-horwath,winternet.general
Date: 10 Jul 1996 14:51:11 GMT
Organization: SkyPoint Communications, Inc.
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <4s0g0v$76a@stratus.skypoint.net>
References: <schne042-1007960854110001@x209-65.bae.umn.edu>
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Mike Schneider (schne042@gold.tc.umn.edu) wrote:
: Another thing is that the first reports said the entire staff quit when
: Mike was fired. Later reports stated most of the staff quit and the
: remainder was fired. So which is it?
This isn't necessarily inconsistent. Whatever the truth is, the board
claims that the whole crew threatened to quit if old management was
replaced. According to the board, when old management was ousted,
several of the crew had a memory loss as to their commitment to quit.
Generally if you threaten to quit that is sufficient grounds to be
fired -- regardless of your original intentions (i.e. a probable bluff.)
Minnesota is an employement at whim state which means your employment,
unless contractually obligated, is at the whim of the employer so long
as the various special age, race and gender provisions are not violated.
This doesn't seem to be related to age, race or gender, but there could
be contract arrangements we don't know about involving the old management
that could end up in court.
The terminated/resigned workerbees probably won't be coming back except
at the pleasure of the new management.
--
- John Logajan -- jlogajan@skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 -
- 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
- WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan -
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From: schne042@gold.tc.umn.edu (Mike Schneider)
Newsgroups: mn.general,winternet.fan.mike-horwath,winternet.general
Subject: Re: Inconsistent Winternet stories
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 15:05:43 -0600
Organization: U of MN, Biosystems & Agricultural Engineering
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <schne042-1007961505430001@x209-65.bae.umn.edu>
References: <schne042-1007960854110001@x209-65.bae.umn.edu> <4s0g0v$76a@stratus.skypoint.net>
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In article <4s0g0v$76a@stratus.skypoint.net>, jlogajan@skypoint.com wrote:
> Mike Schneider (schne042@gold.tc.umn.edu) wrote:
> : Another thing is that the first reports said the entire staff quit when
> : Mike was fired. Later reports stated most of the staff quit and the
> : remainder was fired. So which is it?
>
> This isn't necessarily inconsistent. Whatever the truth is, the board
> claims that the whole crew threatened to quit if old management was
> replaced. According to the board, when old management was ousted,
> several of the crew had a memory loss as to their commitment to quit.
> Generally if you threaten to quit that is sufficient grounds to be
> fired -- regardless of your original intentions (i.e. a probable bluff.)
>
...(snipped rest of message)...
I just wanted to clarify that I just stated that the two stories were
different. I did not say that either story was right or legal. I was
just wondering if the remainder got fired. This is usually important when
filing an unemployment claim.
Keep your stick on the ice,
Mike Schneider http://www.bae.umn.edu/Staff/schneider.html
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From: jlogajan@skypoint.com (John Logajan)
Newsgroups: mn.general,winternet.fan.mike-horwath,winternet.general
Subject: Re: Inconsistent Winternet stories
Followup-To: mn.general,winternet.fan.mike-horwath,winternet.general
Date: 11 Jul 1996 04:30:18 GMT
Organization: SkyPoint Communications, Inc.
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <4s200q$o3e@stratus.skypoint.net>
References: <schne042-1007960854110001@x209-65.bae.umn.edu> <4s0g0v$76a@stratus.skypoint.net> <schne042-1007961505430001@x209-65.bae.umn.edu>
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Mike Schneider (schne042@gold.tc.umn.edu) wrote:
: just wondering if the remainder got fired. This is usually important when
: filing an unemployment claim.
That might explain why some of those who had earlier committed to quiting
if old management were ousted, suddenly had memory lapses and decided they
were fired arbitrarily.
--
- John Logajan -- jlogajan@skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 -
- 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
- WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan -
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From: "M. Olenick" <olenick@olen.com>
Newsgroups: mn.general,winternet.fan.mike-horwath,winternet.general
Subject: Re: Inconsistent Winternet stories
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 22:20:15 -0500
Organization: StarNet Communications, Inc
Lines: 72
Distribution: local
Message-ID: <31E472EF.72A6@olen.com>
References: <schne042-1007960854110001@x209-65.bae.umn.edu> <4s0g0v$76a@stratus.skypoint.net> <schne042-1007961505430001@x209-65.bae.umn.edu> <4s18ic$kn7@blackice.winternet.com>
Reply-To: michaelo@olen.com
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The fired vs. quit issue would be VERY important if -- say -- former Winternet management had made any
verbal contracts with staff members thus defeating the employment-at-will issue. If, say for academic
purposes, Mike H. acting in his capacity as Winternet management had told certain staff members if they
worked hard and didn't make any technical mistakes they would remain employed this would be a binding
contract and it seems to me that firing them would be an actionable breach of this contract. One's status
as an employee-at-will can, of course, be defeated by a contract: otherwise we'd never see a golden
parachutes, employee unions, or wrongful termination lawsuits.
On a more direct note I'm personally sad and professional upset by what has been happening at Winternet.
I've found service to be greatly eroded and the sluggish performance of the server's -- as well as having my
site down an entire day and my dial-up account off -- is disconceting. The silence of the new owner's as to
what happened is worse. I feel like I own a construction company with one supplier that, for whatever
reason, has been prone to closing whenever they feel like for no apparent reason with no explanation: I find
it unacceptable. Worse yet, the dial-up accounts I've referred to Winternet -- who are paying more than
they would at other ISP's -- are all calling me telling me I gave them bad advice. Not good for my
reputation.
Well, to sum things up I've sent personal e-mails but I'd like to say in public that while I believe
Winternet had growing pains on the business side Mike and his staff were the most competent, quick, and
overall responsive system administrators I've ever come across. I'll miss this collection of talent.
Michael Olenick
Olen Publishing
Ron DuFresne wrote:
>
> Mike Schneider (schne042@gold.tc.umn.edu) wrote:
> : In article <4s0g0v$76a@stratus.skypoint.net>, jlogajan@skypoint.com wrote:
>
> : > Mike Schneider (schne042@gold.tc.umn.edu) wrote:
> : > : Another thing is that the first reports said the entire staff quit when
> : > : Mike was fired. Later reports stated most of the staff quit and the
> : > : remainder was fired. So which is it?
> : >
> : > This isn't necessarily inconsistent. Whatever the truth is, the board
> : > claims that the whole crew threatened to quit if old management was
> : > replaced. According to the board, when old management was ousted,
> : > several of the crew had a memory loss as to their commitment to quit.
> : > Generally if you threaten to quit that is sufficient grounds to be
> : > fired -- regardless of your original intentions (i.e. a probable bluff.)
> : >
> : ...(snipped rest of message)...
>
> : I just wanted to clarify that I just stated that the two stories were
> : different. I did not say that either story was right or legal. I was
> : just wondering if the remainder got fired. This is usually important when
> : filing an unemployment claim.
>
> Very much so. You lose unenjoy-ment if you quit. You'll most likely get
> unenjoy-ment if your fired, unless the company can show just cause...
>
> Later,
>
> Ron DuFresne
> --
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> "Cutting the space budget really restores my faith in humanity. It
> eliminates dreams, goals, and ideals and lets us get straight to the
> business of hate, debauchery, and self-annihilation." -- Johnny Hart
> ***testing, only testing, and damn good at it too!***
>
> OK, so you're a Ph.D. Just don't touch anything.
--
Mollee & Michael Olenick
olenick@olen.com
Olen Publishing, http://www.olen.com
Olen Interactive Pregnancy Calendar
http://www.olen.com/baby
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From: Camille Klein <capella@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: mn.general,winternet.fan.mike-horwath,winternet.general
Subject: Re: Inconsistent Winternet stories
Date: 11 Jul 1996 07:35:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <4s33el$2ts@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>
References: <schne042-1007960854110001@x209-65.bae.umn.edu> <4s0g0v$76a@stratus.skypoint.net> <schne042-1007961505430001@x209-65.bae.umn.edu> <4s200q$o3e@stratus.skypoint.net>
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John Logajan (jlogajan@skypoint.com) murdered some electrons to write:
# That might explain why some of those who had earlier committed to quiting
# if old management were ousted, suddenly had memory lapses and decided they
# were fired arbitrarily.
It's a he said/she said type of thing though, John. But frankly, given some
of the stuff that *I* have been told by the people at W'hinternet and
given Carl Frankowski's comment that the customers really don't need to
know anything about what's going on (no I am not directly quoting), I am
far more inclined to believe the old staff's insistence that they were
fired outright simply because of their loyalty to Mike. It has nothing
to do with my personal likes or dislikes--I am going on my observations.
--Camille.
--
I said it. You read it. I'm not taking it back.--Drew Lanz.
"My apologies, Mr. Speaker, but the honourable Member doesn't have the
brains of a demented canary."
Ministry of BattleTech Mailing list: mail majordomo@polarnet.com with the
words 'subscribe tmobml' in the body.
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From: jlogajan@skypoint.com (John Logajan)
Newsgroups: mn.general,winternet.fan.mike-horwath,winternet.general
Subject: Re: Inconsistent Winternet stories
Followup-To: mn.general,winternet.fan.mike-horwath,winternet.general
Date: 11 Jul 1996 15:12:26 GMT
Organization: SkyPoint Communications, Inc.
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <4s35kq$7cu@stratus.skypoint.net>
References: <schne042-1007960854110001@x209-65.bae.umn.edu> <4s0g0v$76a@stratus.skypoint.net> <schne042-1007961505430001@x209-65.bae.umn.edu> <4s200q$o3e@stratus.skypoint.net> <4s33el$2ts@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>
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Camille Klein (capella@primenet.com) wrote:
: I am far more inclined to believe the old staff's insistence that they were
: fired outright simply because of their loyalty to Mike.
Can you find out if it is true that old management threatened the board that
*all* his subordinates would quit if he were ousted?
If so, who's welfare was foremost in his mind when made the threat?
His subordinates or his own?
If you were in the old management's shoes, would you endeavor to use your
subordinates' livelyhoods as bargaining chips to keep your own position,
or would you endeavor to ensure that they were harmed as little as
possible by the upcoming confrontation?
--
- John Logajan -- jlogajan@skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 -
- 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
- WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan -
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From: Camille Klein <capella@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: mn.general,winternet.fan.mike-horwath,winternet.general
Subject: Re: Inconsistent Winternet stories
Date: 11 Jul 1996 09:05:02 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <4s38ne$a5o@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>
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John Logajan (jlogajan@skypoint.com) murdered some electrons to write:
# Can you find out if it is true that old management threatened the board that
# *all* his subordinates would quit if he were ousted?
I can certainly try--whether or not I will be successful in my endeavour
is another matter entirely.
# If so, who's welfare was foremost in his mind when made the threat?
# His subordinates or his own?
Define 'his'--Mike Horwath's, or Mathison and Frankowski's?
# If you were in the old management's shoes, would you endeavor to use your
# subordinates' livelyhoods as bargaining chips to keep your own position,
# or would you endeavor to ensure that they were harmed as little as
# possible by the upcoming confrontation?
I would do the latter--which to me would be letting them make their own
decisions as to whether or not they will stay or go. I don't think that
Mike H. used the old staff at all like that--he's not that type of guy.
--Camille.
--
I said it. You read it. I'm not taking it back.--Drew Lanz.
"My apologies, Mr. Speaker, but the honourable Member doesn't have the
brains of a demented canary."
Ministry of BattleTech Mailing list: mail majordomo@polarnet.com with the
words 'subscribe tmobml' in the body.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Path: visi.com!winternet.com!blink
From: blink@winternet.com (Brian Link)
Newsgroups: mn.general,winternet.fan.mike-horwath,winternet.general
Subject: Re: Inconsistent Winternet stories
Date: 10 Jul 1996 14:58:36 GMT
Organization: StarNet Communications, Inc
Lines: 32
Distribution: local
Message-ID: <4s0ges$njv@blackice.winternet.com>
References: <schne042-1007960854110001@x209-65.bae.umn.edu> <4s0g0v$76a@stratus.skypoint.net>
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I think the hassle is semantics. The staff said they would quit, and so
they were fired. End result? Fired.
BLink
John Logajan (jlogajan@skypoint.com) wrote:
: Mike Schneider (schne042@gold.tc.umn.edu) wrote:
: : Another thing is that the first reports said the entire staff quit when
: : Mike was fired. Later reports stated most of the staff quit and the
: : remainder was fired. So which is it?
: This isn't necessarily inconsistent. Whatever the truth is, the board
: claims that the whole crew threatened to quit if old management was
: replaced. According to the board, when old management was ousted,
: several of the crew had a memory loss as to their commitment to quit.
: Generally if you threaten to quit that is sufficient grounds to be
: fired -- regardless of your original intentions (i.e. a probable bluff.)
: Minnesota is an employement at whim state which means your employment,
: unless contractually obligated, is at the whim of the employer so long
: as the various special age, race and gender provisions are not violated.
: This doesn't seem to be related to age, race or gender, but there could
: be contract arrangements we don't know about involving the old management
: that could end up in court.
: The terminated/resigned workerbees probably won't be coming back except
: at the pleasure of the new management.
: --
: - John Logajan -- jlogajan@skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 -
: - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
: - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan -
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Path: visi.com!winternet.com!dufresne
From: dufresne@winternet.com (Ron DuFresne)
Newsgroups: mn.general,winternet.fan.mike-horwath,winternet.general
Subject: Re: Inconsistent Winternet stories
Followup-To: mn.general,winternet.fan.mike-horwath,winternet.general
Date: 10 Jul 1996 21:50:04 GMT
Organization: StarNet Communications, Inc
Lines: 36
Distribution: local
Message-ID: <4s18ic$kn7@blackice.winternet.com>
References: <schne042-1007960854110001@x209-65.bae.umn.edu> <4s0g0v$76a@stratus.skypoint.net> <schne042-1007961505430001@x209-65.bae.umn.edu>
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Mike Schneider (schne042@gold.tc.umn.edu) wrote:
: In article <4s0g0v$76a@stratus.skypoint.net>, jlogajan@skypoint.com wrote:
: > Mike Schneider (schne042@gold.tc.umn.edu) wrote:
: > : Another thing is that the first reports said the entire staff quit when
: > : Mike was fired. Later reports stated most of the staff quit and the
: > : remainder was fired. So which is it?
: >
: > This isn't necessarily inconsistent. Whatever the truth is, the board
: > claims that the whole crew threatened to quit if old management was
: > replaced. According to the board, when old management was ousted,
: > several of the crew had a memory loss as to their commitment to quit.
: > Generally if you threaten to quit that is sufficient grounds to be
: > fired -- regardless of your original intentions (i.e. a probable bluff.)
: >
: ...(snipped rest of message)...
: I just wanted to clarify that I just stated that the two stories were
: different. I did not say that either story was right or legal. I was
: just wondering if the remainder got fired. This is usually important when
: filing an unemployment claim.
Very much so. You lose unenjoy-ment if you quit. You'll most likely get
unenjoy-ment if your fired, unless the company can show just cause...
Later,
Ron DuFresne
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Cutting the space budget really restores my faith in humanity. It
eliminates dreams, goals, and ideals and lets us get straight to the
business of hate, debauchery, and self-annihilation." -- Johnny Hart
***testing, only testing, and damn good at it too!***
OK, so you're a Ph.D. Just don't touch anything.
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Path: visi.com!winternet.com!news
From: Geri Sullivan <gfs@toad-hall.com>
Newsgroups: mn.general,winternet.fan.mike-horwath,winternet.general
Subject: Re: Inconsistent Winternet stories
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 19:36:10 -0600
Organization: SMOTHRA
Lines: 34
Distribution: local
Message-ID: <31E45A8A.3B6E@toad-hall.com>
References: <schne042-1007960854110001@x209-65.bae.umn.edu>
Reply-To: gfs@toad-hall.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: 7mpls3.winternet.com
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Xref: visi.com mn.general:28062 winternet.fan.mike-horwath:36 winternet.general:850
Mike Schneider wrote:
>
> I saw the channel 9 news story about Winternet last night. Michael
> Frankowski made some comments that were inconsistent with earlier reports.
<snip?
> He also stated that they were completely back online and back to normal.
> I saw a statement today that said that there were still parts of the
> system that were down. Which is correct?
<snip>
> I would like to hear more people's observations of inconsistancies about
> this whole situation. Thank you.
If the service I've been struggling to receive for the past several
days is "normal," I need to find a new service provider.
The ability to connect and send and receive email has been
consistently flakier than at any time since I joined Winternet 7
months ago. While I have been able to eventually get on and deal
with mail, my expectation that I will be able to do so at any given
time has taken a nose dive. I haven't changed anything about *my*
set-up.
Winternet is not currently reliable, IMO. I can live with this for a
few days, but it is not an acceptable state of affairs.
Then again, neither was the coup. A successful business is based on
relationships, and you just don't treat people that way.
================ Geri Sullivan <gfs@toad-hall.com> ================
Curly locks! Curly locks! Wilt thou be mine? Thou shalt not wash
dishes Nor yet feed the swine. But sit on a cushion, And sew a
fine seam, And feed upon strawberries, Sugar and cream.
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From: jerber@winternet.com (Jeremy Berg)
Newsgroups: mn.general,winternet.fan.mike-horwath,winternet.general
Subject: Re: Inconsistent Winternet stories
Followup-To: mn.general,winternet.fan.mike-horwath,winternet.general
Date: 11 Jul 1996 15:09:30 GMT
Organization: StarNet Communications, Inc
Lines: 12
Distribution: local
Message-ID: <4s35fa$rcu@blackice.winternet.com>
References: <schne042-1007960854110001@x209-65.bae.umn.edu> <4s0g0v$76a@stratus.skypoint.net> <schne042-1007961505430001@x209-65.bae.umn.edu> <4s200q$o3e@stratus.skypoint.net> <4s33el$2ts@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tundra.winternet.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0]
Xref: visi.com mn.general:28063 winternet.fan.mike-horwath:37 winternet.general:851
Camille Klein (capella@primenet.com) wrote:
:
: It's a he said/she said type of thing though, John. But frankly, given some
: of the stuff that *I* have been told by the people at W'hinternet and
: given Carl Frankowski's comment that the customers really don't need to
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Karl Mathison
--
)*( )*( http://www.berg.org/~jerber
>> MAIL: jerber@geeks.org
\________/ Ex-Winternet Volunteer
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Path: visi.com!winternet.com!news
From: lehman@winternet.com (Todd Lehman)
Newsgroups: mn.general,winternet.fan.mike-horwath,winternet.general
Subject: Re: Inconsistent Winternet stories
Date: 11 Jul 1996 07:05:39 GMT
Organization: Fibblesnork Software
Lines: 21
Distribution: local
Message-ID: <4s2943$2b@blackice.winternet.com>
References: <schne042-1007960854110001@x209-65.bae.umn.edu> <4s0g0v$76a@stratus.skypoint.net> <schne042-1007961505430001@x209-65.bae.umn.edu> <4s200q$o3e@stratus.skypoint.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: subzero.winternet.com
Xref: visi.com mn.general:28081 winternet.fan.mike-horwath:43 winternet.general:872
John Logajan <jlogajan@skypoint.com> wrote:
>Mike Schneider (schne042@gold.tc.umn.edu) wrote:
>: just wondering if the remainder got fired. This is usually important when
>: filing an unemployment claim.
>
>That might explain why some of those who had earlier committed to quiting
>if old management were ousted, suddenly had memory lapses and decided they
>were fired arbitrarily.
John,
All were fired verbally on-the-spot. Non-voluntarily. No resignations.
Not even the option to resign. I heard this at 3:45pm on Black Friday
from a reliable source.
Please do not ever suggest again that the old crew are liars.
No one is changing their minds and contradicting themselves except the
new management.
--Todd
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Path: visi.com!winternet.com!dufresne
From: dufresne@winternet.com (Ron DuFresne)
Newsgroups: mn.general,winternet.fan.mike-horwath,winternet.general
Subject: Re: Inconsistent Winternet stories
Followup-To: mn.general,winternet.fan.mike-horwath,winternet.general
Date: 11 Jul 1996 15:40:39 GMT
Organization: StarNet Communications, Inc
Lines: 30
Distribution: local
Message-ID: <4s379n$3tc@blackice.winternet.com>
References: <schne042-1007960854110001@x209-65.bae.umn.edu> <4s0g0v$76a@stratus.skypoint.net> <schne042-1007961505430001@x209-65.bae.umn.edu> <4s200q$o3e@stratus.skypoint.net> <4s33el$2ts@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: parka.winternet.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Xref: visi.com mn.general:28112 winternet.fan.mike-horwath:46 winternet.general:891
Camille Klein (capella@primenet.com) wrote:
: John Logajan (jlogajan@skypoint.com) murdered some electrons to write:
: # That might explain why some of those who had earlier committed to quiting
: # if old management were ousted, suddenly had memory lapses and decided they
: # were fired arbitrarily.
: It's a he said/she said type of thing though, John. But frankly, given some
: of the stuff that *I* have been told by the people at W'hinternet and
: given Carl Frankowski's comment that the customers really don't need to
: know anything about what's going on (no I am not directly quoting), I am
: far more inclined to believe the old staff's insistence that they were
: fired outright simply because of their loyalty to Mike. It has nothing
: to do with my personal likes or dislikes--I am going on my observations.
Of course, the question here is; exactly what have you observed
firsthand of events here in Minnesota Camille? I'd venture that the
answer to that is; nothing for quite sometime...
Later,
Ron DuFresne
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Cutting the space budget really restores my faith in humanity. It
eliminates dreams, goals, and ideals and lets us get straight to the
business of hate, debauchery, and self-annihilation." -- Johnny Hart
***testing, only testing, and damn good at it too!***
OK, so you're a Ph.D. Just don't touch anything.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Path: visi.com!winternet.com!ppp-66-114.dialup.winternet.com!user
From: geweke@winternet.com (Alan Geweke)
Newsgroups: mn.general,winternet.fan.mike-horwath,winternet.general
Subject: Re: Inconsistent Winternet stories
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 13:09:00 -0600
Organization: None Whatsoever
Lines: 35
Distribution: local
Message-ID: <geweke-1107961309000001@ppp-66-114.dialup.winternet.com>
References: <schne042-1007960854110001@x209-65.bae.umn.edu> <4s0g0v$76a@stratus.skypoint.net> <schne042-1007961505430001@x209-65.bae.umn.edu> <4s18ic$kn7@blackice.winternet.com> <31E472EF.72A6@olen.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.246.66.114
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.1.1
Xref: visi.com mn.general:28116 winternet.fan.mike-horwath:48 winternet.general:897
In article <31E472EF.72A6@olen.com>, michaelo@olen.com wrote:
> The fired vs. quit issue would be VERY important if -- say -- former
Winternet management had made any
> verbal contracts with staff members thus defeating the
employment-at-will issue. If, say for academic
> purposes, Mike H. acting in his capacity as Winternet management had
told certain staff members if they
> worked hard and didn't make any technical mistakes they would remain
employed this would be a binding
> contract and it seems to me that firing them would be an actionable
breach of this contract. One's status
> as an employee-at-will can, of course, be defeated by a contract:
otherwise we'd never see a golden
> parachutes, employee unions, or wrongful termination lawsuits.
>
> On a more direct note I'm personally sad and professional upset by what
has been happening at Winternet.
> I've found service to be greatly eroded and the sluggish performance of
the server's -- as well as having my
> site down an entire day and my dial-up account off -- is disconceting.
The silence of the new owner's as to
> what happened is worse. I feel like I own a construction company with
one supplier that, for whatever
> reason, has been prone to closing whenever they feel like for no
apparent reason with no explanation: I find
> it unacceptable. Worse yet, the dial-up accounts I've referred to
Winternet -- who are paying more than
> they would at other ISP's -- are all calling me telling me I gave them
bad advice. Not good for my
> reputation.
Actually, for comparable services (services as they were during Mike's
presence), e.g., unlimited 24 hour access for $24.95, I think that
Winternet. ends up being cheaper than the norm for MN ISP's...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Path: visi.com!winternet.com!news
From: lwillis@winternet.com
Newsgroups: mn.general,winternet.fan.mike-horwath,winternet.general
Subject: Re: Inconsistent Winternet stories
Date: 12 Jul 1996 04:17:37 GMT
Organization: StarNet Communications, Inc
Lines: 27
Distribution: local
Message-ID: <4s4jl1$1fs@blackice.winternet.com>
References: <schne042-1007960854110001@x209-65.bae.umn.edu> <4s0g0v$76a@stratus.skypoint.net> <schne042-1007961505430001@x209-65.bae.umn.edu> <4s200q$o3e@stratus.skypoint.net> <4s33el$2ts@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> <4s35kq$7cu@stratus.skypoint.net>
Reply-To: lwillis@winternet.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-67-65.dialup.winternet.com
X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 v1.2.5
Xref: visi.com mn.general:28138 winternet.fan.mike-horwath:50 winternet.general:961
In <4s35kq$7cu@stratus.skypoint.net>, jlogajan@skypoint.com (John Logajan) writes:
>Camille Klein (capella@primenet.com) wrote:
>: I am far more inclined to believe the old staff's insistence that they were
>: fired outright simply because of their loyalty to Mike.
>
>Can you find out if it is true that old management threatened the board that
>*all* his subordinates would quit if he were ousted?
>
>If so, who's welfare was foremost in his mind when made the threat?
>His subordinates or his own?
>
>If you were in the old management's shoes, would you endeavor to use your
>subordinates' livelyhoods as bargaining chips to keep your own position,
>or would you endeavor to ensure that they were harmed as little as
>possible by the upcoming confrontation?
>
>
But even if Mike had said it, new management would be obligated to hear it
directly from the people themselves. You can't take one person's statement
that another is going to quit. You have to get that sort of thing from the
actual person. Otherwise it is total hearsay.
Loren Willis
snappy, witty brief signature file appearing here soon!
lwillis@winternet.com
other characters in various alternate Battletech realities
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Path: visi.com!winternet.com!news
From: bret@winternet.com (Bret Indrelee)
Newsgroups: mn.general,winternet.fan.mike-horwath,winternet.general
Subject: Re: Inconsistent Winternet stories
Date: 12 Jul 1996 04:52:51 GMT
Organization: Winternet Corporation, Mpls, MN
Lines: 24
Distribution: local
Message-ID: <4s4ln3$6vt@blackice.winternet.com>
References: <schne042-1007960854110001@x209-65.bae.umn.edu> <4s0g0v$76a@stratus.skypoint.net> <schne042-1007961505430001@x209-65.bae.umn.edu> <4s200q$o3e@stratus.skypoint.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tundra.winternet.com
Xref: visi.com mn.general:28140 winternet.fan.mike-horwath:51 winternet.general:966
In article <4s200q$o3e@stratus.skypoint.net>,
John Logajan <jlogajan@skypoint.com> wrote:
>Mike Schneider (schne042@gold.tc.umn.edu) wrote:
>: just wondering if the remainder got fired. This is usually important when
>: filing an unemployment claim.
>
>That might explain why some of those who had earlier committed to quiting
>if old management were ousted, suddenly had memory lapses and decided they
>were fired arbitrarily.
As long as the management at Winternet has signed resignations in writing,
it is easy to verify who resigned. Every employer I know of would require
a signed resignation.
Without that, I would expect a lot of the former employees to sign up
for unemployment. Let the Board of Directors explain to the unemployment
office why they suddenly fired every employee.
-Bret
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bret Indrelee | "As the most participatory form of mass speech yet
bret@winternet.com | developed, the Internet deserves the highest
CDA - Just say NO! | protection from governmental intrusion." -Judge Dalzell
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Path: visi.com!winternet.com!news
From: miked@winternet.com (Mike DeZelar)
Newsgroups: mn.general,winternet.fan.mike-horwath,winternet.general
Subject: Re: Inconsistent Winternet stories
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 12:38:18 GMT
Organization: StarNet Communications, Inc
Lines: 30
Distribution: local
Message-ID: <31e63c78.703585@news.winternet.com>
References: <schne042-1007960854110001@x209-65.bae.umn.edu> <4s0g0v$76a@stratus.skypoint.net> <schne042-1007961505430001@x209-65.bae.umn.edu> <4s200q$o3e@stratus.skypoint.net> <4s4ln3$6vt@blackice.winternet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-66-87.dialup.winternet.com
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99e/32.227
Xref: visi.com mn.general:28164 winternet.fan.mike-horwath:52 winternet.general:989
bret@winternet.com (Bret Indrelee) wrote:
>In article <4s200q$o3e@stratus.skypoint.net>,
>John Logajan <jlogajan@skypoint.com> wrote:
>>Mike Schneider (schne042@gold.tc.umn.edu) wrote:
>>: just wondering if the remainder got fired. This is usually important when
>>: filing an unemployment claim.
>>
>>That might explain why some of those who had earlier committed to quiting
>>if old management were ousted, suddenly had memory lapses and decided they
>>were fired arbitrarily.
>
>As long as the management at Winternet has signed resignations in writing,
>it is easy to verify who resigned. Every employer I know of would require
>a signed resignation.
>
>Without that, I would expect a lot of the former employees to sign up
>for unemployment. Let the Board of Directors explain to the unemployment
>office why they suddenly fired every employee.
Somehow, I don't think the people involved will really need to concern
themselves with unemployment. I just have a hunch that they probably
won't have too much trouble finding new jobs. It seems, as evidenced
by the abundance of problems at WinterNyet (good one, Todd), that
there is a severe shortage of competent technical help out there.
---
Michael DeZelar E-Mail: miked@winternet.com
Elk River, Minnesota, USA
O-
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Path: visi.com!winternet.com!news
From: Greg Abbott <abbott@winternet.com>
Newsgroups: mn.general,winternet.fan.mike-horwath,winternet.general
Subject: Re: Inconsistent Winternet stories
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 09:39:47 -0500
Organization: Abbott & Baruch, Ltd.
Lines: 37
Distribution: local
Message-ID: <31E663B3.7A69@winternet.com>
References: <schne042-1007960854110001@x209-65.bae.umn.edu> <4s0g0v$76a@stratus.skypoint.net> <schne042-1007961505430001@x209-65.bae.umn.edu> <4s18ic$kn7@blackice.winternet.com> <31E472EF.72A6@olen.com>
Reply-To: abbott@winternet.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-66-15.dialup.winternet.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
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Xref: visi.com mn.general:28176 winternet.fan.mike-horwath:53 winternet.general:993
> The fired vs. quit issue would be VERY important if -- say -- former
>Winternet management had made any
> verbal contracts with staff members thus defeating the employment-at-will
>issue. If, say for academic
> purposes, Mike H. acting in his capacity as Winternet management had told certain staff >members if they
> worked hard and didn't make any technical mistakes they would remain employed this would >be a binding
> contract and it seems to me that firing them would be an actionable breach of this >contract. One's status
> as an employee-at-will can, of course, be defeated by a contract: otherwise we'd never see >a golden
> parachutes, employee unions, or wrongful termination lawsuits.
Yes it is true that a specific contractual agreement will change an employee's from "at
will" to whatever the agreed arrangement is. However, typically such an employment contract
MUST BE IN WRITING. There is a wonderful thing called the Statute of Frauds, first enacted
in the sixteenth century: in its modern form it requires a contract to be in writing to be
enforceable, if the contract by its terms cannot be completed in one year. There are a
whole host of cases holding that oral promises of "lifetime" employment are not enforceable
for this very reason.
For the last three years, a significant part of my law practice has been employment law
(mostly in Texas, as my wife and I just moved back to Minnesota in January).
To paraphrase an old bromide, an oral contract isn't worth the paper it's written on.
Greg Abbott
------------
Gregory A. Abbott abbott@winternet.com
ABBOTT & BARUCH, LTD.
Offices at Centre Village
431 S. Seventh St., Suite 2424
Minneapolis, MN 55415-1854
(612) 333-6691
(612) 344-1683 -fax
------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Path: visi.com!winternet.com!winternet.com!merlyn
From: merlyn@winternet.com (Doug McIntyre)
Newsgroups: mn.general,winternet.fan.mike-horwath,winternet.general
Subject: Re: Inconsistent Winternet stories
Date: 12 Jul 96 15:04:36 GMT
Organization: StarNet Communications, Inc
Lines: 39
Distribution: local
Message-ID: <merlyn.837183876@winternet.com>
References: <schne042-1007960854110001@x209-65.bae.umn.edu> <4s0g0v$76a@stratus.skypoint.net> <schne042-1007961505430001@x209-65.bae.umn.edu> <4s200q$o3e@stratus.skypoint.net> <4s33el$2ts@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> <4s35kq$7cu@stratus.skypoint.net> <4s4jl1$1fs@blackice.winternet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tundra.winternet.com
X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #2 (NOV)
Xref: visi.com mn.general:28178 winternet.fan.mike-horwath:54 winternet.general:998
lwillis@winternet.com writes:
>In <4s35kq$7cu@stratus.skypoint.net>, jlogajan@skypoint.com (John Logajan) writes:
>>Camille Klein (capella@primenet.com) wrote:
>>: I am far more inclined to believe the old staff's insistence that they were
>>: fired outright simply because of their loyalty to Mike.
>>
>>Can you find out if it is true that old management threatened the board that
>>*all* his subordinates would quit if he were ousted?
>>
>>If so, who's welfare was foremost in his mind when made the threat?
>>His subordinates or his own?
>>
>>If you were in the old management's shoes, would you endeavor to use your
>>subordinates' livelyhoods as bargaining chips to keep your own position,
>>or would you endeavor to ensure that they were harmed as little as
>>possible by the upcoming confrontation?
>>
>But even if Mike had said it, new management would be obligated to hear it
>directly from the people themselves. You can't take one person's statement
>that another is going to quit. You have to get that sort of thing from the
>actual person. Otherwise it is total hearsay.
Just as a final word on this, I was never asked if I would quit or follow
Mike. I was just fired outright. In the meetings Mike had with Kevin M
and Michael F, I never once heard him threaten that his whole staff would
walk out if he walked, nor was that implied.
They did send their girlfriends and wives to ask some (3 or 4) of the
employees while we were in those meetings if they would stay if Mike
was gone. I assume those that were asked said something vague like
they probably would leave, at least that is what they said to me after
the meetings were done that day.
--
Doug McIntyre Ex-Winternet Employee merlyn@winternet.com
Network Engineer/Network Manager
Due to circumstances beyond your control, you are master of your fate
and captain of your soul.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Path: visi.com!winternet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!capella
From: Camille Klein <capella@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: mn.general,winternet.fan.mike-horwath,winternet.general
Subject: Re: Inconsistent Winternet stories
Date: 12 Jul 1996 07:53:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Lines: 15
Distribution: local
Message-ID: <4s5osd$2t7@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>
References: <schne042-1007960854110001@x209-65.bae.umn.edu> <4s0g0v$76a@stratus.skypoint.net> <schne042-1007961505430001@x209-65.bae.umn.edu> <4s200q$o3e@stratus.skypoint.net> <4s33el$2ts@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> <4s35fa$rcu@blackice.winternet.com>
X-Posted-By: capella@usr3.primenet.com
Xref: visi.com mn.general:28247 winternet.fan.mike-horwath:56 winternet.general:1043
Jeremy Berg (jerber@winternet.com) murdered some electrons to write:
# Karl Mathison
Sorry--that's what I get for posting on little sleep.
--Camille.
--
I said it. You read it. I'm not taking it back.--Drew Lanz.
"My apologies, Mr. Speaker, but the honourable Member doesn't have the
brains of a demented canary."
Ministry of BattleTech Mailing list: mail majordomo@polarnet.com with the
words 'subscribe tmobml' in the body.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Path: visi.com!winternet.com!mr.net!news.mr.net!inet-serv.com!proteon.inet-serv.com!wstenson
From: wstenson@inet-serv.com (Wayne M. Stenson)
Newsgroups: mn.general,winternet.fan.mike-horwath,winternet.general
Subject: Re: Inconsistent Winternet stories
Followup-To: mn.general,winternet.fan.mike-horwath,winternet.general
Date: 13 Jul 1996 02:27:37 GMT
Organization: InterNetwork Services
Lines: 17
Distribution: local
Message-ID: <4s71ip$2o1@saucer.inet-serv.com>
References: <schne042-1007960854110001@x209-65.bae.umn.edu> <4s0g0v$76a@stratus.skypoint.net> <schne042-1007961505430001@x209-65.bae.umn.edu> <4s18ic$kn7@blackice.winternet.com> <31E472EF.72A6@olen.com> <geweke-1107961309000001@ppp-66-114.dialup.winternet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: proteon.inet-serv.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Xref: visi.com mn.general:28274 winternet.fan.mike-horwath:57 winternet.general:1051
Alan Geweke (geweke@winternet.com) wrote:
: In article <31E472EF.72A6@olen.com>, michaelo@olen.com wrote:
[snip]
: Actually, for comparable services (services as they were during Mike's
: presence), e.g., unlimited 24 hour access for $24.95, I think that
: Winternet. ends up being cheaper than the norm for MN ISP's...
You need to look around some more. Unlimited access is available for $19.95
or less from 2 or more providers.
--
Wayne M. Stenson wstenson@inet-serv.com
InterNetwork Services (612) 391-7300
Maple Grove, MN (800) 488-7456
A Minnesota Internet Access Provider (info@inet-serv.com)
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